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New naval projects...

PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 3:57 pm
by SYN_Bandy
Inspired by Waxworks' mission description, I started looking into the SMS torpedoboot class as a possible project. The single funnel 1916 class appears to be the most common, the most seaworthy, and served throughout the war, though larger more capable Torpedoboot destroyers came along later (2 and 3 funnels). The British just called them destroyers, but the Germans stuck with the class name. From even just a quick search, this class has a lot of variability with deck configuration, so I went with the best profile I could find.

Anyways, next thing I knew I had a mesh going. Just some few deck details left along the aft portion, the masts and rigging, but it is coming along. Advice always appreciated when it comes to making things easier on myself, and the best way to ensure a smooth transition into the game, with a lot of help of course.

Do we have an 88 mm gun already in RoF??? That would be perfect because that is the caliber of the deck guns. Even a 75 mm artillery piece would be fine to place on the deck.

I Can't afford 3DSMax, or the time to master it at this point, but can do textures. :grin:



Re: New naval project

PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:18 pm
by SYN_Vander
Hi Bandy, the German cruiser and submarine carry 52 mm and 105 mm guns. The british cruiser uses 4 in and 6 in guns. But creating a new gun isn't that hard.

The mesh is looking quite good already! I would add a few polys to the funnel and the ship's stern though, to make it more smooth.
Looking at the shape of this ship I would divide the hull in three sections for the damage model and the fourth section being the bridge. See my ship SDK document. However, don't break up the ship until you are completely happy with the mesh and UV mapping is done.

Re: New naval project

PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:39 pm
by SYN_Bandy
Will do on the extra polys! I never know where the balance is between poly count and performance, though I suppose that limit is changing with better hardware.

All good advice, and where is this SDK posted? :grin:

Re: New naval project

PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 5:36 pm
by SYN_Vander
Here ya go!
RoFShipsSDK (1).zip

Re: New naval project

PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 6:08 pm
by Waxworks
Its an attractive model and represents the plans well. My concern would be that it's not quite large enough a vessel for the functionality gap between the drifters and cruisers. If you look up the Battle of Dover Strait (October 1916) the Germans were very cautious when they only had these smaller torpedo boats, which were more or less confined to port.

If you have similar documentation and you're not too far along with this ship, the two-funnel three-gun Grosses Torpedoboat 1913 might be a better choice. Hopefully many of the parts are interchangeable? The A-class would be a substantial addition though. I know I had aspirations to make models but Vander's SDK just put me off, I don't know how he does it.

Re: New naval project

PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:31 am
by SYN_Bandy
According to this webpage most of the Large Torpedoboot Class 1913 ships were sunk in the Baltic, some in the North Sea, and a few at Jutland. A handful are not clear where they sank, just that they were hit by British submarine or destroyers. They obviously saw a lot of Fleet action.

The smaller class represented in this thread were stationed in Flanders and functioning in the shallow waters there. Several were sunk by mines, so they must have left port and conducted shallow water patrols, perhaps intercepting drifters, mine layers, merchants, etc. They were considered very seaworthy, fast, and agile (likely more so than a drifter). Just inference here, but they probably filled a similarly less glamorous role when compared to their larger in-fleet 'classmates' remembered better by history.

So I agree Waxworks that it is historic fact that the smaller torpedoboot class may not have stood up in fleet naval battles, but ultimately we have to ask whether we are making these ships for a flight sim with a limited Channel map, or a WWI naval combat sim. :grin:

That said, the S139 two-funnel Torpedoboot depicted below appears to be quite similar to what I've modeled already, except larger (roughly 80 m verses 60 m at waterline), had different aft deck arrangement, BUT most built towards the end of the war. They mounted 10.5 cm guns, so these are already covered in RoF, six torpedo tubes, and they had mines! Perhaps all that needs to be done is to change the mesh scale slightly and reconfig the aft deck of the ship (which is currently not complete anyways)?
Open to discussion, as always

Re: New naval project

PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:29 pm
by Waxworks
Two flotillas of modern torpedo boats were sent to Flanders in 1916 and based at Brugge, to fight RN coastal forces on our map, as is evident from the service records on the site (not all of the larger torpedo boats based there were scuttled there either):

Gro├čes Torpedoboot 1913

G41 Put out of service in Brugge on 3 .10. 1918
G42 Sunk by RN destroyers Swift and Broke on 21.0. 1917 [the Second Battle of Dover Strait]
V47 Scuttled in Belgium on 2.11.1918
S61 Scuttled in Belgium on 2.11.1918
V67 Scuttled in Belgium on 2.11.1918
V69 Scuttled in Belgium on 2.11.1918
V74 Scuttled in Belgium on 3.11.1918 [Put out of service in Brugge on 3 .10. 1918?]
V77 Scuttled in Belgium on 2.11.1918
G85 Sunk by RN destroyers Swift and Broke on 21.0. 1917 [the Second Battle of Dover Strait]
G88 Torpedoed by an RN motor boat [off Flanders 8.4.1917]
V68 Mined [off Flanders] 8.8.1918

If you look at the details (under History) of the Torpedo boat 1915 class the torpedo tubes were removed later in the war so they could be used as minesweepers- yet we already have the drifters which can be used as minesweepers. One was sunk by mines during minesweeping, probably? Apparently seven were sent to Belgium and five were interned there. However none are recorded as being lost in action with RN light forces? Sixteen of the earlier very different Torpedo boat 1914 class were sent to Belgium, but they were 'not very useful.'

So though the smaller coastal boats were in Flanders, it was the modern torpedo boats which were used for sorties and which fought RN motor boats and destroyers in the region represented by the Channel map. Its not fleet actions I would want them for but actions against their opposite numbers, modern RN destroyers based at Harwich- escorting monitors attacking Ostend and Zeebrugge.

Re: New naval project

PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:10 pm
by Waxworks
The ship you have there (great image) is V139? The S139 was from the torpedo boat 1906 class and was launched in 1907. The Grosses 1916 class were improved designs of the 1913 class (commissioned in 1914-7).

Have you got side and deck plans for these other classes of ship..? Its a good diagram you have based your original model on, and ships of that type were definitely present in Flanders. All I wanted to point out is that the extra threat posed from the Flanders Flotilla in 1917 was specifically because two flotillas of big torpedo boats had been transferred there from the main fleet. These ships might only be one-third longer but they are more than are twice as big.

For our purposes it means they might mount 2-3 AA guns rather than one, and should sink more readily than cruisers- or about as readily as our unmodified cruisers do.

Unfortunately the only side and deck plans I have myself are for the biggest three-funnel Zerstorers, which were always kept with the fleet in Germany...

Re: New naval project

PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:36 pm
by SYN_Bandy
There appears to be a typo on that website since it also lists S139 as part of the Grosses 1916Mob class. There were quite a few of them built, but again, towards the end of the war. The website where I lifted the image also listed it as S139, so I don't know...

Am not trying to out-fact you on naval history Waxworks, I'll lose given the background you've researched for the Channel mission :grin: but there is the issue of pragmatism that I mentioned as to why I made my original choice.

Re: New naval project

PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:13 pm
by SYN_MrWolf
Nice model already B.

Another idea..make on of the first cariers. Its just a primitve pad constructed on top of a ship right.
Maybe put a plane on top of it so people can see you can't actually land on it.