New naval projects...

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Re: New naval project

Postby Waxworks » Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:34 pm

This is a pretty good thread: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=40496

Another closer picture of one of the kragenunterstands in post #7. Posts #38, #53 and #86 have the main U-boat pens but they might be considered impenetrable for our purposes, while a U-boat in shelter under a kragenunterstand is still vulnerable to someone with far better bomber skills than I have. A challenge, perhaps.

Post #52 has the lock, a target for the 'fliegerbomben.' Post #91 shows the smokescreen used when the monitors attacked.

It seems Hindenburg visited Zeebrugge in May 1917! Perhaps a Hindenburg uniform for one of Vander's soldiers... maybe not!!
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Re: New naval project

Postby Waxworks » Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:16 am

Mark Karau's book on the Marinekorps 'Wielding the Dagger' is prohibitively expensive, however the taster has some useful details on the A-class boats.

The movement of fleet destroyers to Flanders was requested as response to bombardments of the Tirpitz battery which convinced the German commander that an invasion was imminent between Nieuport and Ostend. Also, British destroyers were preventing his A-class torpedo boats from sweeping the barrage off Zeebrugge and Ostend. It was also decided to transfer several of the new A-II torpedo boats from the Baltic and construct a new class of A-boats, the A-56 class.

p78[The A-II boats] 'These ships were 210 ton vessels that, like the original A-boats, were to be assembled in Antwerp and moved to Bruges through the inland canals. All of the boats were to be in Antwerp and ready for construction at the start of November at the latest. It was hoped that these ships would be ready for service in February 1917. They were armed with two 8.8cm guns as well as two 45cm torpedoes and were capable of a top speed of 24-26 knots. They were better than the original A-boats but still not competitive with the British forces they were most likely to meet, the Tribal class destroyers.

In the middle of July the Marinekorps was given further good news when they received word that an additional six A-IIs were to be sent to Flanders by the end of December, giving them 12 of the new ships. In early August the Marinekorps requested several design modifications to the design of the new boats in order to make them more effective in Flanders, where the conditions were very different from the Baltic. For example, because of the greater danger of air attack, they requested that the main armament be capable of serving also as an antiaircraft gun. For further antiaircraft defense two machine guns were requested as a secondary armament. In addition, it was hoped that the forward gun could be moved aft to make it less susceptible to heavy seas. An additional six men were also requested for each ship; one officer and five men to man the antiaircraft guns. The Torpedo Inspectorate responded favourably to these requests with one exception: it was not possible, due to the small size of the ships, to move the gun. The new boats began to come into service in December, augmenting and updating the forces of the Torpedo-Boat Flotilla; but they were not sufficient to shift the balance of forces in the Flanders theater. That would require full destroyer flotillas.'

When destroyers were transferred from the High Seas Fleet they achieved a surprise attack, but were then matched by transfers from the Grand Fleet. However their presence did allow the A-class boats to sweep up the original Belgian coast barrage during the winter of 1916-1917. The provision of destroyers was matched by new airplanes. The Marinekorps had just over twenty airplanes in 1916, mostly seaplanes with a few older scouts, which were unable to protect the bases. They were requipped with first-class Albatros scouts in winter 1916/spring 1917, as well as brand new seaplanes.
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Re: New naval project

Postby SYN_Bandy » Sun Sep 22, 2013 1:49 am

Thanks Waxworks. It is an interesting period on the channel, lots of back and forth going on where one side has an advantage, then the other. Will be a lot of fun to fly both sides.

While modeling the torpedoboots have been a nice challenge and diversion (very Zen ... :ugeek:) I really need to get a hell of a lot of RL stuff done right up to mid-October.
Torpedoboot A-Class, 1809 polys. Handrails will be cut out in the texture alpha channel. The rigging could have been much more involved, but this is my limit. It's a real PITA!
Image

Torpedoboot Grosses 1916 Mob Class, re-purposed and scaled mesh for the most part (few tweaks are still required), but this is pretty much how they looked...
3 x 10.5 cm deck guns, 6 torpedo tubes, and mines!
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Re: New naval projects...

Postby SYN_Bandy » Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:27 am

Just a thought (i do have one on occasion, and then it is occasion to celebrate), as we plan to make more ships, the composition of our 'fleets' will not be as limited. We can mix types of vessels into convoys with destroyer screens, have attacking and defending ships going at it within visual range of each other and us in the sky, shallow draft monitors with their support ships bombarding inland targets, etc... Great times. :cool:

Just to re-emphasize, if not already plain to see, mixed fleet types means we'll need to be smart with the textures and re-use as much as possible. But what does that mean ultimately? Not taking anything away from the efforts and the great results, but the drifter wouldn't have half the character it does if it had to reuse, say, the texture from the barges or cargo ships. Know what I mean?

How do you work this generic texture thing and still get ships with some character to each different type? I suppose/hope with small warships like destroyers and torpedoboots it won't have a lot of negative effect. How far can you go with sharing textures across larger objects like ships anyways?
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Re: New naval projects...

Postby Waxworks » Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:19 pm

You must have been inspired, two ships in just over a week? That's incredible. I've found model kits that aren't as well-designed as your torpedo-boats!

One question about the model: German torpedo boats and destroyers typically had a well deck in front of the bridge, a good example is shown here: http://www.warshipsww2.eu/lode.php?language=E&period=1&idtrida=2006 It doesn't seem to exist in your profile though, which seems to show a flush deck up to the bridge..?

I've looked at the fore part of a few German torpedo boats and they don't seem to have that feature on the front of the bridge in your original photo. I suspect that it is a life raft, and that the object on the side of the funnel is another one of the same type. You have lifeboats either side of the funnel where on your original profile there is only one?

There was a model of an A class that had a couple of vertical parallel lines under the bridge which may be where it was attached, and another of a different type of torpedo boat which had a square white life raft. I could post the links if you want, but it isn't on your mesh?

Where were you going to locate the machine guns?

One IL-2 feature I wish we had is that the default plane texture could have decals applied to it, though even in IL-2 it wasn't available for objects. Ships could use funnel bands and a numbering system. The problem with character might be that then all the ships of that type have to have the same character..?
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Re: New naval projects...

Postby SYN_Bandy » Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:32 pm

The two ships are very similar, so much was re-purposed. If I had to start from scratch, well... I also lose track of time when working on things like this. :grin:

These are the 1916 class; perhaps design departed from earlier ships? Therefore no 'well-deck', and none show up on available profiles or images. See below. What can I say? You have access to the same internet that I do.

Generally ships have life boats on either side in order to deploy on whatever side is leeward to the sea, also in case the ship is listing badly to one side there is a redundancy. I would suggest that the profile artist did not show two lifeboats in order that the detail on the other side was not obscured. These are not blueprints after all.

This screenshot is an earlier iteration of the Grosses 1916 Mob class with the profile available. I edited the post above to show a new screenshot with changes to conning tower etc.
Image

Below are images already posted in this thread for these classes that I used as reference when modeling. I might be mistaken but don't see a well deck on either. However, there is plenty of variation between pictures and profiles available, such as mast/rigging fittings, so there is a certain amount of interpretation required. I agree with adding the life rafts; they are simple and would fill some empty spaces. BUT please remember, one has to draw the line with the amount of detail included because of game engine limitations, and personal time limitations. These will be torture to UV map. In this regard, and with respect to some of your questions, I suggest we don't become slaves to 'rivet-counting' and simply enjoy.

Note the A-class has no deck guns; does this mean the ship in RoF should have no deck guns? Perhaps it is an after war picture?
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Re: New naval projects...

Postby Waxworks » Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:49 pm

The A-class torpedo boats may have varied considerably in how they were put together. There are images which show both of your types with decks flush up to the bridge, however a well deck might be one method to differentiate the two types? All I'm suggesting is that you could remove the last fore polygon before the bridge, not that you start again!!!

There's a couple of close ups of deck fittings in the first post here: http://www.forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index.php/topic,8381.120.html

Here is a profile with the well deck: http://navypedia.org/page/4738

Tiny models with variations: http://www.tomstockton.us/ships/ships_-_a/ships-a_56_class_tb_1917.htm

Postwar photo: http://www.warshipsww2.eu/shipsplus.php?language=E&id=152358

Obligatory WW1 propaganda poster: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/175/flandmark0011di.jpg/

The German ships seem to have had a much heavier light AA armament than even the RN cruisers, where the AA gun may have been something they used to take pot shots at Zeppelins with..? The naval pom-pom will be very useful for the RN destroyers.
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Re: New naval projects...

Postby SYN_Bandy » Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:11 pm

Wanted to add that I read in one of the history websites that the small torpedoboots were assembled in Antwerp and taken on the canals to the Flemish coast. This opens up the possibility of them being used occasionally on the canals as well, maybe as flak ships with barges? I've always wondered whether the barges in WWI actually had AAA. Canal shipping would have been very important for both sides supply lines, and is under utilized in our missions.

That first link is great, thank you, and searching under the later Polish names for some of these ships turned up more images and profiles:

TB Krakowiak (formerly A64)
http://wwiimodeller.co.nz/on-the-way-from-mirage-hobby-1350-polish-ships-krakowiak-blyskawica-and-podhalanin/

This one will help a lot with getting the deck details correct (!). As mentioned profiles are interpretations by artists, and even scale models like the pictures below will have some variation from reality. For instance, aren't the lifeboat davits on the wrong side, how is the boat supposed to be lowered? Where is the range finder? I still like these images though...
http://www.konradus.com/forum/read.php?f=1&i=206108&t=205997

And here is a pick of the lifeboat being deployed! Look at all that smoke! :shock: I think it is coming from the funnel :???:
http://www.shipspotting.com/gallery/photo.php?lid=355445
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Re: New naval projects...

Postby Waxworks » Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:42 pm

That model is an excellent source! He even has the machine guns placed, I had wondered where they went. Maybe they were removed in port? The mine shoot(?) on the stern is very evident. The image from the bow really shows how slim and long the ship is, which isn't as apparent from the threequarter profile.

He very probably has the davits right. Its the same configuration as on the German cruiser we already have in the game. It seems problematic but couldn't the davits simply be swung alternately, rather than together? The davits might need to be on the deck edge for clearance?

There were barges deployed at Zeebrugge on the inside of the mole, they may have had weapons, there were guns all over the mole. However I suspect that the regular inland barges would not have been armed!

I doubt that torpedo boats would be used on the canals, because the canals they did use were ship canals not regular canals. When they did move on the ship canals, they were the targets! While canals were used for supplies, as far as I know they wouldn't be used in proximity to the lines, they would drop off at a depot for trucks, then the trucks might drop off at another depot where horses would distribute supplies. Also, while a barge might seem like an important target, the priority targets were rail junctions or depots, where fires could be started and which might cause substantial dislocation, far beyond the sinking of a single barge. That's if British bombing objectives had any rationale at all.... Troops were not moved by barge. Sinking a barge would not have enough of an impact on the morale of the German army, old chap!

I had wondered whether two versions of the torpedo boat might be useful, one with actual mines on the prominent minerails, and perhaps without the aft gun? Though the mines couldn't be dropped they are very visible and nasty-looking when carried, and an extra chance of the ship exploding could be scripted in the drop zone. However I haven't been able to find any images on the mines on deck or references to minelaying sorties, and it seems the ships might have been used more for minesweeping than minelaying?

Apparently Felixstowe missions looked for mines as much as submarines, and were far more effective at reducing the coastal mine menace (together with convoys). Vander raised whether a mine object would be useful previously, but it seems doubtful- we don't have torpedoes, and if mines have to explode by script they might as well be unseen?
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Re: New naval projects...

Postby Waxworks » Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:06 pm

Aha! On that modellers site with the Krakowiak, five posts down there's a guy who has links to his model for the A-56, which is in black camouflage and has mines aboard: http://www.konradus.com/forum/read.php?f=1&i=189199&t=189199&filtr=0&page=3

Those mines are even uglier than I expected, and look large compared to the ship! The aft gun has been retained but it is evident how awkward it is. There seems to be no space for machine guns.

I'm not having much success with the destroyers. Several photos of destroyers transferred to France, S133, S134, S135, S139 : http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Chastang_class_destroyers?uselang=en-gb
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